Yes, Obama, we ARE a Christian nation

us-flag-with-sun-crossObama in Turkey:  “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation”

I believe the founders, if alive to see the Obamanation today, would beg to differ.  Most of the founders and nurturers of our young country specifically referred to religion and morality as being pillars of a free country….AND  large numbers of the founders and representatives of the time expressed we should follow–specifically–a Christian and/or a Judeo-Christian value set moving forward.  A tiny sampling:

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time ; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. – Charles Carroll, signer of Declaration of Independence

We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.  – Benjamin Rush, Signer of Declaration of Independence

The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.  – Noah Webster, Founding Educator

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.  – Robert Winthrop, former Speaker-House of Representatives 1850’s 

(Source: Wall Builders)

Yes, Obama, we ARE a Christian nation.    And it has served us well.

We are an exceptional Christian nation.

Then we have the Cover of Newsweek this week: The End of Christian America

I believe that the vast majority of Americans would beg to differ with Newsweek and the secularist movement actively supported and pushed by our President and many in Washington.

From a commenter I read this at Michelle Malkin today…this is debunked and summed up very well:

Don’t they realize Christianity has survived the trials and tribulations, mass killings, governmental persecutions, on and on and on since Christ walked on this earth and still it survives and no matter what happens in the United States it will still exist.

On one thing I may agree, the United States isn’t serving Christ nor Christian precepts currently, (as evidenced that Obama was elected to be the president) but that hardly translates to Christianity being dead. Christ and His message lives. Regardless of the state of men’s souls, Christ has risen and He has the victory.

Diamond Rio’s “In God We Still Trust” expresses what our Judeo-Christian roots have done and still do for America….and that most of us understand we ARE a Christian nation and are opposed to making our country into some secularist so-called utopia.

You place your hand on His bible, when you swear to tell the truth.
His name is on our greatest monuments an’ all our money too.
An’ when we pledge allegiance, there’s no doubt where we stand:
There’s no separation, we’re one nation under Him.

In God, We Still Trust,
Here in America,
He’s the one we turn to every time the going gets rough.
He is the source of all our strength,
The one who watches over us.
Here in America, in God, we still trust.

Now there are those among us,
Who wanna push Him out.
And erase his name from everything,
This country’s all about.
From the schoolhouse to the courthouse,
They’re silencing His word,
An’ now it’s time for all believers,
To make our voices heard.

In God, We Still Trust,
here in America,
He’s the one we turn to every time the goin’ gets rough.
He is the source of all our strength, the one who watches over us.
Here in America, in God, we still trust.
Here in America,
Here in America,
Here in America, in God, we still trust.
Here in America, in God, we still trust.
Here in America.

Happy Easter and God Bless America!


51 Responses

  1. We are a Christian nation with a secular government. Obama has not hung around any Christians in a long time if ever. His church in Chicago, which he attended infrequently, was further removed from the Christian mainstream perhaps than any other Christian denomination, save the Unitarians…
    When he bows to the King of Saudi Arabia, he really demonstrates his lack of understanding of the Christian faith and what the Saudi King represents to Islam as the protector of te 2 most important cities in Islam, a role the Caliph traditionally has… He probably has a better understanding of Islam than Christianity as he attended the former regularly with his step-father in Indonesia. His mother was an agnostic as best; his maternal grandparents were Unitarians, which stands for anything goes…

  2. Cal Thomas wrote an interesting oped about homosexual marriages, the Christian Church, and the latter’s failure to speak clearly about the family, single parents births, and the high divorce rate (Pretty even to non-Christians). He makes the point that before we, Christians, get all excited about homosexual marriages destroying the fabric of society, we should look at how we are not doing very well with own own heterosexual marriages. For Thomas’ article go here:
    Cal Thomas, as does George Will, too often takes pleasure in criticizing the hand that feeds him just to demonstrate his “alleged” openness. I call it insecurity…

  3. You’re a total f&*(ing idiot.
    I don’t know how Thomas Jefferson could make it much clearer. Here’s an excerpt from his letter to Major John Cartwright:
    “I was glad to find in your book a formal contradition, at length, of the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for such the judges have usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a part of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced, is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed. But it may amuse you, to shew when, and by what means, they stole this law in upon us.”

    If that’s not enough, I will show you Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. Since you probably haven’t read the Constitution, the Supremacy Clause states that all treaties we sign are “supreme Law of the Land”.
    Article 11:
    “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    Here’s a quote from James Madison, the Father of the Constitution:
    “Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

    Here’s another quote from him:
    “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”

    Here’s two quotes from John Adams:
    “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.”
    “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”

    Stop with your bulls&*t revisionist history and read a book. If you knew anything about the Constitutional Conventions, you would know that many of the signers were Deist.
    Sorry that I have to completely own you like this, but if you use actual facts in the future, you can prevent this.

    I’m a Christian. But I thank God that I’m not a delusional f^&*ing idiot like you.

    (Bad words modified by SRT)

  4. “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” -Thomas Jefferson

    “Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”
    -Benjamin Franklin

  5. Hey Chris,
    Your comment should be deleted due to its hateful rhetoric, but I’ll take your bait if only to “own you” and clarify what it is you missed in the post.

    Since you didn’t actually read my post before your expetive-filled “fear of Judeo-Christian values” rant, you might have noticed that I said the founders/nurterers were RELIGIOUS and that MANY of them referred SPECIFICALLY to the Christian faith. All of the quotes referred specifically to Christianity.
    I never said they were all Christians nor did I intend to discount the Deists amongst the founders.

    The founders of this country were squarely in the corner of religion, many of them Christians, and almost all of them, as history has documented, claiming a divine Creator that gave us our rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

    I believe that I referred to the Judeo-Christian values that were set forth in our Constitution and were the values of our founders.

    My main point was to counter the errored phrase from Obama’s lips that we are not a Christian, nor Jewish, nor Muslim nation. We ARE a Judeo-Christian or Christian nation. The values of the Bible and those of our founders are what made America and contributed to our exceptionalism for more than 200 years.
    Obama doesn’t seem to understand very much about America including the values upon which we were founded.

    Our country is a melting pot with many religious faiths…as it should be according to the First Amendment. However, we don’t have to ignore nor overwrite the importance of our Christian/religious founding, as many on the Left have a habit of doing.

    As a Christian, you certainly seem to have an irrational fear that we may have had founders and leaders in this country who were men that adhered to the teachings of the God of the Bible. Interesting.

  6. Taylor,
    Did you go to the same atheist website that Chris did and find your quotes under “quotes that prove we are not a Christian nation”?

  7. Happy Easter, there, Chris!

    You must be a real hoot at parties.

    Do you spend Christmas throwing rocks at nativity scenes?

  8. Chris and Taylor:
    Did you hang around Jeremiah Wright’s church?
    Hate is not a Christian value!
    By swearing you only show how limited your vocabulary is… A product of public schools, I’m sure…
    As a history buff, you should know that Judeo-Christians, who all fall short due to our fallen/sinful nature, have been the greatest force for good in the history of the World. No other family of religions has fostered a greater search for the truth (to include scientific research).
    Just one example will suffice: It is not Africans or Arabs, or Asians, who first determined that slavery was wrong. It was Christian men in England!
    Replacing our Judeo-Christian values with socialism and any other religion where the government pretends to cater to the common good eventually leads to tyranny… Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Marx, and Hitler all replaced God with “reason” and ended up with neither and too many corpses…
    By the way Islam is not a religion but a barbaric political system which has oppressed more people than any other religion. The “reincarnation” or polytheistic religions are introspective and fatalistic.
    Last but not least, common law is not synonymous with democracy. If the king or lord or dictator owns the court, common law will give you the same results in China, Cambodia or Russia today.
    A blessed Easter to you.

  9. Talyor’s Jefferson quotation ion Christianity being the most perverted system is not accurate.

    Though there are lots of quotations from the “Christian Nation” side that are bogus as well.

    There is a big difference between the concepts of “Christianity” and “Judeo-Christianity.” Jews reject practically every single word of the Nicene Creed and most if not all of the divine inspiration of the New Testament. Is that what the lowest common denominator of “Judeo-Christianity”?

    America’s Founders were indeed religious, but, like the Jews rejected almost every word of the Nicene Creed and purposefully excluded concepts like the Trinity, original sin, eternal damnation, infallibility of the Bible, from politics. We have to come to terms with THAT before we start talking about what are the religious foundations of the American Founding.

  10. […] does Obama, for all the world to see, choose to validate “the Muslim world”, but says his own country is not a Christian nation or even acknowledge its Judeo-Christian […]

  11. sharprightturn,

    NONE of the examples you cited from our Founding Fathers specify a ‘Christian nation’ – they reference Christianity, the Bible, etc., but do not explicitly endorse the establishment of a ‘Christian nation.’

    The United States of America has NEVER been, nor will it EVER be a Christian nation. If you had any knowledge of the Bible whatsoever, you would understand that the idea of a ‘Christian nation’ has NOTHING to do with a ‘nation’ on Earth.

    Our Founding Fathers had the foresight to establish a nation founded on certain principles that, yes, are valued in modern Christianity. The Fathers, however, were not foolhardy enough to establish a theocracy – in fact, that was exactly what they did NOT want to do.

    Get your facts straight – you are sorely misguided, and it’s too bad you give Christians everywhere in the U.S. a bad name.

    “Sharp Right Turn – An Incomplete View of News and Politics.”

    And, no, I did not vote for your much-feared Obama.

  12. David,
    If our founding was based on Christian principles, and we aren’t a Christian nation, then what kind of nation are we?
    Secularist? Muslim? Naturalist? Progressive?

    As far as theocracy, my post never mentioned that American is a theocracy….and it isn’t. And should not be.

  13. I honestly come close to hurling when I hear things like this. We ARE NOT a Christian nation! Yes, we were founded on Judeo-Christian values and morals, and yes the majority of Americans are Christian, but saying we are a Christian nation basically says that Christianity is our official religion, does it not? Kinda like how many countries in the Middle East with theocracies are Muslim nations. Even though I’m agnostic and will never ever be a Christian (that’s another story), I have no problem whatsoever with other peoples’ religions, AS LONG AS THEY DON’T TRY TO FORCE IT ON OTHERS. But saying the US has an official religion is exactly the same as our government forcing religion on us, pretty damn obviously violating the 1st Amendment. Religion should be a personal practice anyway.

  14. Alex,
    I come close to hurling every time someone denies the fact that we have a Judeo-Christian heritage. We don’t have a Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, or agnostic heritage. Our founders were men of faith who based our country’s founding upon a Judeo-Christian set of principles…..which, by the way, includes freedom of religious expression.
    That is not to say that our country doesn’t freely accept those who practice those other faiths, but it is disingenous for Obama or anyone to refer to our nation as a Muslim nation on par with a Christian nation, for exampe. We weren’t founded on Shariah law nor the Koran’s teachings.

    I never said we had an “official” religion that is forced upon its citizens either…you put words there I never said.

    I don’t believe I ever said anything about forcing Christianity on others nor do I believe that the government should establish an “official religion” of Christianity.

    We are founded on Judeo-Christian principles which includes a freedom of religious expression and which means our country is based largely on the Jewish and Christian teachings.
    In this day and age, Christians in this country are far from the ones forcing anything on anybody. What we are witnessing is leadership and influences that are darn near making Christianity the only religion that WON’T be tolerated. (which is anathema to anything the founders envisioned.)

  15. OK, so we DON’T have “Judeo-Christian (I know it’s a bit contradictory and probably not the right word to use) values, but we WERE founded on J-C principles? Mmmk…. Also, many of the founders were deists, very different from Christianity. Even if they or the principles they used for the US’s framework were Christian, that doesn’t mean we should start calling ourselves a Christian nation.

    Obama never said we were a Muslim nation! And alright, I extrapolated what you said a little too much, but I was just making a point. We still shouldn’t associate America with ANY religion.

    You’ve got to be ♥♦♣♠ing kidding. “Christians aren’t the ones forcing anything on anybody”?!? Have you never heard of fundamentalism? The Christian variety is almost as bad as the Muslim terrorists (in terms of mindset).

    There’s a reason Christianity is being tolerated less and less: In theory, any religion like Christianity that promotes living a good life, helping others, w/e is fine, it’s bound to get a bad reputation when more and more followers start getting as intolerant and bigoted as a lot of religious conservatives.

  16. Alex,

    Obama did claim that we are a large MUSLIM nation just prior to his trip to Egypt this year. (
    By most estimates the US is 58th among world countries in terms of Muslim population…if you use Islam propanganda number of 8 million in the US the US is still 29th.

    Now contrast Obama’s comments on us “being a large Muslim country” to his comments in 2007:
    “Whatever we once were, we’re no longer a Christian nation. At least not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, and a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.”

    So why does Obama feel the need to prop up the Muslim faith in America and brush aside our clearly Christian heritage?
    Inclusiveness is fine, but not at the expense of our heritage and millions of Christians.

    Christians in this country don’t wish to suppress the religious beliefs of ANYONE…Christians, even fundamentalist Christians, have maintained over and over the free expression of religion. But Obama clearly wishes to suppress the influences of the majority Christian population in this country.

    So with Obama, who is being divisive? Obama or the Christians?

    Also Fundamentalist Christians may have a few stray kooks, just like fundamental atheists, Far Left liberalism, and others.
    But generally, the Christians in this country wish to maintain our freedom of religious expression. Christians are not intolerant to others and bigoted. That is a lie perpetuated by the Left and those who are nonbelievers.

    Let’s use the example of homosexuality, which the Bible says is a sin….I will surmise that you believe a Christian stand against homosexuality is intolerant….just as many on the Left have espoused for years.
    Christians do believe it is a sin, but if a homosexual wants to practice that type of sex behind closed doors….so be it….that person will one day answer to God. We can love the person, but not condone the sin. That is what the Lord has taught us.

    Yet, those who wish to push the homosexual agenda upon ALL Americans, believe that Christians should forgo their religious beliefs and shut up about gay marriage and teaching our kids that “it is just another choice.”
    Who is being intolerant?

    Comparing fundamentalist Christians to a terrorist’s “mindset” is beyond the pale.

    The Islamic terrorist mindset is one that creates terror in order to persuade people to follow Islam. They also condone killing, lying, beatings, threats, terror, and more as a means to an end.
    When is the last time you witnessed a Christian, in the truest sense of the word, bomb a building? beat his wife for exposing her skin? threatening jihad against those who don’t believe? torturing and slaughtering those who denounce Christianity? I could go on.

    Islamic terror and fundamentalism is the epitome of hate. Christianity is the epitome of love.

    You mentioned that you have no problem with other people’s religion…if they don’t force it on you?
    How is it that a Christian who stands up for traditional marriage, maintaining life for the unborn, teaching Biblical morality and more is “forcing”?
    Just as you express your views as an agnostic, why can’t Christians fight for their views?

    We now have a government that believes the Ten Commandments must not be in public places, but the same government doesn’t demand the same “ban” for violence and sex on TV? (From Univ of Michigan study, an average American child will see 200,000 violent acts and 16,000 murders on TV by age 18)

    We have many leaders in government right now that believe it is a woman’s “choice” to kill her unborn child and they work to code further abortion “rights” into law every year.
    But the same leaders believe that talk radio and Fox News are a pox on the country and should be further regulated or removed from the air. The government should dictate the “choices” you have for news and commentary, in their minds.
    Those same leaders are working to implement a healthcare insurance system where you have NO CHOICE in whether you have insurance or not….you must or you will be fined.

    I mean, really, whose beliefs are under assault here? And who is really eliminating true choice versus condoning it?

  17. Alex,

    About the deists among the founders.

    Much of this belief that most were deists is quite debatable.

    Two of the more prominent founders, Franklin and Jefferson, showed some tendencies to Deism, but even they at times referenced a God active in our lives.

    In addition, many of the more “unpopular” founders were orthodox Christians. Some more well known Christians were Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, John Hancock, and John Witherspoon.

    It is a clear fact that ALL of the founders based much of the principles of our country on Biblical findings and teachings. In addition, they reference frequently the Divine God in references such as — Nature’s God, Creator, Supreme Judge of the Word, and Divine Providence.

    It is a tough sell to say that our country’s founding was clearly not founded on Biblical Christian principles or that “many” of the founders were Deists.

  18. Yeah, that was stupid of Obama to say we aren’t a Christian nation but that we are a Muslim, Jewish, etc nation. My point is that we aren’t ANY of those. There are millions of people who follow each of those faiths but that doesn’t equate to BEING a nation of all of our faiths in the sense of national identity…

    You really can’t say that fundamentalist Christians are still in favor of freedom of religion, they’re the ones saying stuff like “repent and make Christ your savior, or burn in hell”. And about influence, religion shouldn’t have any influence in politics.

    (The Deism post) I’m not saying our country wasn’t built with certain religious values in mind, but that still doesn’t mean we should call ourselves a Christian nation.

    Homosexuality isn’t a choice, it’s genetic. Even if it were it’s no reason to condemn it. And we’re not “pushing a homosexual agenda”, we’re just saying gays shouldn’t be persecuted just because some people think homosexuality is wrong.

    I said mindset, not actions like torture, suicide bombing, etc. I meant they’re similar in terms of being narrow minded, bigoted and extremist. And I said almost; actual terrorists are obviously worse.

    Ideally Christianity is about love and respecting each other and all that good stuff, but there most definitely are so-called Christians that aren’t so “in the sense of the word”.

    I admire how passionate you are about the ideal Christian beliefs and I wish all Christians were like that, but you cannot say there aren’t millions and millions of Christians who very strongly condemn homosexuality and other issues. While I can beat any one of them in an argument about gay marriage, I respect their religious convictions that make them believe as such. What I can’t stand is when they expect the government to constitutionally ban gay marriage BECAUSE OF those religious reasons, because to me that IS violating freedom of religion.

    Christians can have their views, they just can’t expect the government to have the same views.

    I agree that there’s too much sex and violence (first 2 lines of the Family Guy theme), but this isn’t about that. And those numbers seem like they’re on the wrong order of magnitude…

    “Oh no, I’m guaranteed health coverage in case I need surgery or something like that that’ll otherwise cost me tens of thousands of dollars!” (This isn’t about health care either but I’d still kick anyone’s ass in a debate).

  19. Alex,
    they’re the ones saying stuff like “repent and make Christ your savior, or burn in hell

    But Alex they don’t force that on anyone. It is their right to spread their faith message, but they don’t force anyone….the point is free will. That is a far cry from forcing anyone to believe anything. There is no law forcing any of that, nor is anyone forcing anyone to receive Christ as Savior by dictates of government.

    Conversely, homosexuals DO wish to force their worldview on Christians by dicates and laws of government.

    Homosexuality isn’t a choice, it’s genetic.

    That is not proven and many do not believe homosexuality is genetic. I am no genetic scientist…but if just use pure logic…think about declaring the status of a person’s sexuality as genetic when that very status does not provide for reproduction of the species….
    Even if we invoke evolutionary thinking…how could man/woman evolve with gene make-ups that are counter to reproduction…we’d have been extinct long ago..seems to me.

    we’re just saying gays shouldn’t be persecuted just because some people think homosexuality is wrong

    How are they persecuted? No rational person wishes to dictate what a gay person does behind closed doors. I certainly don’t…more power to you…your choice.. have a relationship…live your life…

    Aside from that …. homosexuals have EVERY single right that anyone else in this country has….maybe more since, in this day and age, a crime committed against a homosexual would warrant a stiffer penalty than the same crime committed against a heterosexual.

    Even if we assume it is genetic, the God of the Bible orders us to turn away from sin…and homosexuality is a sin according to God.
    I am just relaying what many in this country believe including me. I don’t think a true Christian is condemning the person struggling with homosexuality. They are free to make their own choices…..but please don’t force (by law) those choices upon me and my children and against my beliefs.
    Particularly since, throughout history…and mostly not until the recent decades….did anyone really believe that marriage includes the joining of two of the same sex. Should we reverse centuries of religious belief, family relationships, kinship rules, and basic human nature….so that a minority of citizens can name their relationship “Marriage”?

    I respect their religious convictions that make them believe as such. What I can’t stand is when they expect the government to constitutionally ban gay marriage BECAUSE OF those religious reasons, because to me that IS violating freedom of religion

    You can’t “ban” gay marriage because it doesn’t exist. ( I do suppose you could develop a law or amendment against it, however)
    Marriage is between a man and a woman. That has been the definition of marriage for…ever. Marriage is based in civil and religious laws…it is a huge cultural element within our system of relationships and living. Forever altering and destroying that should not be taken lightly.

    I really don’t understand how not allowing two men or two women to marry is violating anyone’s religious beliefs. If nothing else, it violates the religious beliefs of the vast majority of citizens in this country who believe in the Bible’s definition of marriage.

    One of the best NON-RELIGIOUS defenses of marriage (and reasons to reject gay marriage) I have ever read is here:
    Thought it may interest you.

    Christians can have their views, they just can’t expect the government to have the same views.

    But the government MUST and SHOULD hold the view of homosexuals?

    Thanks for responding…

  20. Hey I’m back. Sorry this took so long; I’ve had a lot of studying and homework to do lately and didn’t get around to it until now.

    Anyway, while I do loving having an actually intelligent discussion about something like this (kinda hard to find on the internet), this’ll be my last post. I do respect you for actually putting some thought into your arguments, however easy they are to tear down…

    Regarding the original subject, we ARE NOT a Christian nation; we should always have separation of church and state. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. But I’mma put an end to the gay marriage issue right here. I really am sorry if I offend your religious views, but you have to realize we’re talking about public policy, not the religious convictions of part of the country.

    First off, how dare you say gays are “forcing their view” on anyone?? It’s not about some oppressive, über-liberalist, anti-religious agenda, it’s just about two people of the same gender being able to receive the same benefits of marriage that straight couples do. A+ for biased wording…

    Yes, it is genetic. Obviously humans wouldn’t survive if ALL of them were gay – it wouldn’t even survive if everyone was like you, or like me – but it’s only around 2-5%. It might seem counter-intuitive for reproduction, but as far as weird genes go, 6-fingeredness is actually dominant and normal 5-fingeredness is recessive, even though all but a few hundred humans have 5. And why would anyone choose to be part of a group that is persecuted and mistreated as much as gays are?

    Homosexuals aren’t persecuted, and they have every right the rest of us do? Bullshit!! If that were true, there would be no hate crimes against gays, and they’d be able to marry, which is obviously false (I suppose Matthew Shepard just happened to be gay, but was killed for an entirely different reason?). And don’t trivialize it by saying gays have more rights since crimes against them are penalized more harshly.

    About the link, setting aside the huge bias of that article, it is in no way unnecessary. Marriage should be about love between a couple, and its legal acknowledgment. The only “view of homosexuals” is that they deserve the same right of recognition, plus all the other spousal benefits of marriage.

    [For the entire Christianity/religion part]
    You and everyone else are entitled to your beliefs, but just because you believe homosexuality is a sin/is wrong/don’t like it DOES NOT mean everyone feels the same way, or that the government should. Obviously gay marriage exists; it’s legal in a few states and there ~are~ gay marriages. Saying that gays “struggle with” being gay, and that their views are oppressive against Christians, is just mean, and a horrible thing to say. Being gay is just a part of who they are, not some disease they’re struggling with. They aren’t forcing their choices on you either, they’re merely saying they want the option to be able to marry. If you aren’t gay/don’t like gay marriages/disapprove of gay marriages, guess what? YOU DON’T HAVE TO GET ONE. Just leave those who do want one the hell alone.

    Once again, it DOES NOT MATTER how many people in the US like or don’t like gay marriage, denying it is a violation of human rights, just like discrimination based on gender or race. I don’t even understand why this is being debated at all (nationwide, not just here). There’s nothing to debate; it should be legal, end of story. Happy holidays…

  21. Another penny for you’re thoughts….

  22. ^your^

  23. Alex,
    The video is obviously based on a huge number of strawman examples….

    And, not a single homosexual in this country has any less rights than a heterosexual….NONE. ( I could even argue they have more because of so-called “hate” crimes law.)

    So the entire premise of this video is flawed.

    And just for the record….I don’t think anyone who opposes homosexuality on religious or other principles believes homosexuals should be banned or outlawed. We believe that it should not be treated as something to embrace…..especially for those of us who understand it is morally wrong.

    And no matter how many times it is said, those whose wish to force everyone to accept the lifestyle and “marriage”, don’t hear that we love the person, but can’t accept the lifestyle.
    It is not a matter of hate, but a matter of morality, religious beliefs, culture and family.
    Why should the skewed views of those with a homosexual agenda trump my values, morality, religion, historical culture and family?
    They don’t and they shouldn’t.

  24. Damit, I have to respond. I’m sorry, I don’t get all that political and don’t have a huge position on stuff like the war, global warming, etc., but this is the one thing I am incredibly passionate about.

    Yeah I admit the video uses a lot of strawmen. For more serious one, see, especially, 3:24 to 4:50

    If homosexuals had every right heterosexuals do, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY. It really isn’t any different from allowing blacks to marry or allowing gays/women/black people to vote. It’s just something that should be allowed.

    I’m gonna try to say this one last time: it does ~~~NOT~~~ matter how individuals or society feels about the “lifestyle”, gay marriage is simply a right, and it not being federally recognized is unconstitutional. For those who worry about “traditional values”, ” redefining marriage”, “the sanctity of marriage”, etc:
    1. How does this take away marriage’s sanctity? Marriage should be about love between two people, I would think giving that option to more people would make it an awful lot more sacred.
    2. If marriage had never been redefined, blacks still wouldn’t be able to get married.
    3. As for marriage’s so called sanctity,almost half of them end in divorce (which should be punishable by death, according to your precious Bible).

    You’re not being forced to believe anything, you be as morally opposed to gay marriage as you want. Just don’t think that everyone is opposed to it, or that that has any bearing on federal policy.

    And finally, I’m getting sick of your wording bias. Their views are not skewed, and there’s no agenda, it’s the belief that their love should be just as recognized as that of straight couples. Their values don’t trump yours, but yours don’t trump theirs either. Honestly I think it’s pretty sad that you don’t realize how mean and bitter you think the “lifestyle” is, and how you can accept the morality given to you by your religious values, and not question whether you should even believe in a religion that gives you such hateful view…..

  25. Alex,
    If homosexuals had every right heterosexuals do, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO MARRY

    Marriage is between a man and a woman. Homosexuals have the right to marry (the opposite sex) just as a heterosexual does. If someone is a homosexual and doesn’t want to marry the opposite sex, then they simply choose not to exercise that right….but they still have the same right to marry.
    Marriage is between a man and woman. Religions teach it, bodies are made for it, procreation and the continuance of mankind requires it, and it has been embraced for thousands of years.

    It really isn’t any different from allowing blacks to marry or allowing gays/women/black people to vote. It’s just something that should be allowed

    No it’s not. First, being “gay” is not equivalent to the color of one’s skin. Ask Rosa Parks about true discrimination. The premise and the fight for black equality is undermined by equating the two.

    By your assessment, fathers should be able to “marry” their daughters, polygamists should “marry” any number of people they choose, and child predators should be able to “marry” children. In the gay agenda view, why are the values of those people any less than those of a gay person?

    Marriage is between a man and woman. Where does the altering of the meaning of marriage end? Why does a gay man’s preference for men have more “rightful” meaning than a child predator’s preference for children?

    It is interesting to me that revolutionaries for so-called gay rights want to change the very social structure that brought them here.

    Second, being gay, white, black or purple has nothing to do with the right to vote. If you are a LEGAL American, you have the right to vote.

    it does ~~~NOT~~~ matter how individuals or society feels about the “lifestyle”, gay marriage is simply a right, and it not being federally recognized is unconstitutional.

    How is not allowing gay marriage unconstitutional? I guess beastiality and incest being crimes is also unconstitutional? Assuming same sex humans having sex is “natural” and gives a right to altering the meaning of marriage…is about as illogical as saying a man who loves to “play with” his own daughter should be able to “marry” his child.
    Worse, if gays could “marry” what is to keep a gay man from marrying his 20-year old brother or his son? If you believe that wrong, why? Based on gay marriage revolutionary logic if the brothers or father/son want to marry they should have the right. Tradition, religion, society and those opposed be damned, I guess.

    Your thoughts are mired in the “progressive” agenda that has tried to shove this notion of “gayness as normal” down our throats. There are many who believe it wrong now and that belief has largely been held by religions and cultures throughout history.

    Just because a gay marriage revolutionary such as yourself believes your views trump those of the current electorate, most Americans, and years of history….doesn’t make you right. But it does make you petulent.

    Honestly I think it’s pretty sad that you don’t realize how mean and bitter you think the “lifestyle” is, and how you can accept the morality given to you by your religious values, and not question whether you should even believe in a religion that gives you such hateful view…..

    My views are not mean or bitter. I said this in an earlier comment, “No rational person wishes to dictate what a gay person does behind closed doors. I certainly don’t…more power to you…your choice.. have a relationship…live your life…”

    How is that mean or bitter? I believe if you are homosexual you live life as choose, within the bounds of law, just like anyone else. What you do in your bedroom is your business. I simply believe–based on the purpose of marriage, religious teaching, history, and culture– that gay marriage is wrong. I don’t hate the homosexual…when did I ever say that?
    Because I (and most others through history) hold a view counter to your own does not make me mean, bitter, or a hateful. I simply choose to love the person but disagree with the gay marriage revolution and state clearly why.

    Further, I have stated what I know to be the historical, religious and majority belief through the years. Yes, much of my belief is based on religious teachings. It is not a hateful view.
    You, on the other hand have not based your view on any substantial facts, historical morality, or religion.
    You’ve have written clearly that you are anti-religious and secular. And you are the one who has thrown out the adjectives against me….wouldn’t that make you bitter and mean?

    I like a good debate. I’ve laid out my values, morality and basis for my views.
    You have pretty much laid out straw man examples, a “We’re gay so I have rights” view, and “I believe it because I want it to be”.

    About your questions to me: YOu mentioned that two gay people should be allowed to love one another….no one in this country prohibits it. Love, love, love. But marriage is about much more than just “love”. Marriage is rooted in many societal rules, tradition, religion, civic issues, protection of woman, procreation, sex, love, raising children, entering adulthood, and more. Marriage is a complex entity with vast societal tentacles down through history. These facets of marriage create a societal and religious sanctity in marriage that will be destroyed and can not be duplicated between two people of the same sex.

    Defining marriage as simply “two people who love each other” is about as thoughtful as calling me hateful for defending my view with beliefs, morality, and values.

    Marriages are not always perfect. You mention divorce. “No-fault” and easy-out divorces coupled with a societal moral collapse over the past several decades has damaged the institution.
    That is one reason, among others, why I defend it vehemently.
    The moral collapse and following institutional damage of marriage is but a prelude to what will happen to marriage in our society if the gays get their wish.

  26. sharp right turn,

    You have failed to demonstrate exactly how, if gay marriage were allowed, it would impinge on your own rights. Equating gay marriage with incest and pedophilia is laughable on its face, as well as offensive, though I’ll concede you have a point vis-a-vis polygamy. However, if polygamy and gay marriage were legalized tomorrow, I find it exceedingly odd that you believe our very social structure would change. There are only so many gays and polygamists out there and, rest assured, they’re already “doing their thing” with or without the protections provided by a legal framework.

    Also, it is possible that homosexuality is biological without being genetic per se. For instance, it could result from hormonal conditions in the in vitro environment; there is some evidence to support this hypothesis.

    America is simply secular nation and always has been, full stop. Your religious faith is between you and your God — neither the government nor your fellow citizens have anything to do with it. Christians are no more a protected class than Hindus, or indeed than atheists, nor should they be.

    Therein lies the strength of the United States of America. Are our children being told unequivocally that there is no God? If so, that would be as egregious as a public schoolteacher teaching the Bible. Freedom to choose one’s path outside the dictates of intellectual or spiritual tyranny has been central to the American experiment.

    That said, I’m not the kind of axe-grinder that objects to Judo-Christian language in a ceremonial context. We certainly have that heritage on a cultural level. In short, saying a prayer before a high-school football game will not get my knickers in a twist, but placing a plaque of the ten commandments in a courthouse will.

  27. Daniel,

    I think have cleary stated my views and conclusions on gay marriage above in other comments.

    There are no scientific conclusions that homosexuality is biological or genetic and science is no where near a point of being able to say the “science is settled”. To your point, however, many human conditions are genetic or biological, yet not desirable nor productive for society.

    Also—You said, “Your religious faith is between you and your God — neither the government nor your fellow citizens have anything to do with it……Christians are no more a protected class than Hindus, or indeed than atheists, nor should they be.”

    By standing up for religious, societal, and historical traditions, Christians and/or those with a traditional values are not asking for “protected status”. Again, if you have read my views, you understand that I believe wholeheartedly in freedom of religion. Of course, that freedom means that I have a right to fight against those people and value systems which seek to impose their secular “religion” upon me via the law.

    As far as secular vs. Christian nation, we are a moral nation of laws. That morality was originated primarily from values outlined in the Bible as understood by our Founders.
    We are not a country founded by men who drew their strength from man or rulers, but by men who drew their strength and adopted their values from a living, breathing God and His Word. Those morals have served us well for well over 200 years.

    Those principles and morals have been the strength of the United States.

    As far as prayer and the Ten Commandments in the public square….our founders intended freedom OF religion. They did not intend for our country to become one where freedom FROM religion is imposed. That intent has been distorted by secularists, liberals, and the Supreme Court. The founders would have prayed at a football game just as they would not have thought twice about the Ten Commandments appearing in a courthouse.

  28. (SRT edited this post to delete expletives)

    Oh lordy it’s been a while, because I actually have a life that doesn’t consist of just running a staunch conservative “bigotry under the guise of morals” webpage, and remembered about it during a debate on a friend’s recent “Prop 8” thread on facebook. I hope to George Carlin that it does stay that way and that there will soon be the federal equivalent of a Prop 8 repeal.

    That said, this REALLY will be my last post. I will give you concise, valid, irrefutable reasons why it needs to be allowed, and I guarantee that ANY argument you think you can make against them (I’ve heard every single one of them) is wrong, and you’re just a close-minded homophobe if you think they’re valid.

    I really need to remind you that this is NOT about your or anyone else’s personal beliefs towards gays, homosexuality or gay marriage; you be as hateful of those as you want. This is merely why gay marriage needs to be nationally allowed.

    1. Marriage is NOT a Christian ritual, nor is it associated with any religion. It was around a long time before Christianity, and Christians have NO claim on “protecting the sanctity of marriage”, even if gays marrying would harm that sanctity.
    And when you went on about marriage having always been about “tradition, religion, protection of women, etc etc” – horseshit. Up until the last few hundred years, marriage everywhere was nothing more than arranged, and had nothing to do with love.

    2. The United States is NOT a Christian nation. The Treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1979 by John Adams, says “the United States Government is not, in any sense, founded on a Christian religion”. And yes, many of the Founding Fathers WERE anti-christian.

    3. Homosexuality IS genetic. Its counter-intuitiveness to reproduction is irrelevant; some members of many other animal species develop homosexual relationships.

    4. There is no harm at all in teaching kids the truth that having two daddies or two mommies is perfectly fine. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and so many other civilizations accepted and often praised gay relationships, and gay men were encouraged to fight in their country’s army, because they would “fight harder to impress their lover”. The reason homosexuality is as taboo as it is in our Western culture is due to Christianity’s stranglehold on every part of European and Colonial life for the middle 1/3 of this millennium. Once the rest of the country gets past their irrational homophobia, all of society will finally be as accepting of homosexuality as they should.

    5. I have no idea why it took any court this long, but that District judge in Cali finally took the legal action of saying that Prop 8 WAS unconstitutional; I still cannot believe you think a ban would be constitutional.

    6. Legalizing gay marriage WON’T make straight marriage illegal, WON’T force you to get a gay marriage, and WON’T legalize polygamy, bestiality, incest, or any other sick practice you try to relate it to. In other words, IT’S NONE OF YOUR F%$&ING BUSINESS.

    7. On a personal note to you about the “freedom of religion” stuff: don’t you ever, EVER equate gays wanting equal rights to “pushing their secular agenda on you”, or your hatred of homosexuality to “defending your religious freedoms” ever again.

    I really hope you see the light, as it were, and realize how prejudicial the suppression of gay marriage is. So long…

  29. ^Sorry, 1979 should be 1797. Sowwy ={

  30. Alex,
    I have already refuted most of what you wrote on your last post. So I will not rehash all of it ad nauseum. I’ll try to address some of your post, however.

    You seem to believe marriage has no historical or religious significance. If so, then why is it so important to gays to redefine marriage for themselves?
    If gays want benefits, then fight for those. If marriage is loveless, non-religious, and not that important, then gays should stay out of it. Or is it really that the agenda for gays is not so much to particpate in the instutition of marriage, but more to damage it and force the ACCEPTANCE of the lifestyle upon Americans?

    As far as the recent Prop 8 ruling— The majority in California and other states have VOTED to define marriage as one man and one woman. The same majority opinion is exhibited in Congress’ creation of DOMA. All overturned by judicial fiat against the legal will of the people.

    And this matter is not one of equal protection….currently ANYONE in this country can marry….all are equal under the current marriage laws in this country.

    Homosexuals don’t want EQUAL protection (they already have it)…they want SPECIAL protection and they want a REDEFINITION of marriage ….and all is being granted by judicial fiat against the voting and legislative will of the people….plain and simple.

    Where is the justice in majority opinion legally expressed by votes and in Congress being shot down by gay, activist judges who don’t refer to law in their opinions?

    If “gay marriage” is such a right (many argue it is on par with slavery and women voting), then why haven’t gays pursued a Constitutional amendment for the right to redefine marriage in that way? Slavery was addressed in the 13th, and women’s suffrage/voting in the 19th amendment. Answer: Based on the outcome of states voting to PROTECT man/woman marriage and the passage of DOMA legislatively, the gay activists/community KNOW that the majority of Americans are against it….Ratification of such an amendment would have very low chance of ever being accomplished.

    Marriage is a basic foundation for healthy families with Christian basis as outlined in the Bible. Homosexuality is certainly not Biblically ethical….marriage between a man and a woman is.
    So, if its benefits that gays want….go after that…. why does the gay community insist on redefining marriage— a basic tenet of families, and more importantly, Christianity—when the gay lifestyle is counter to both of those things?

    On #7, your words are written in threatening language. Why are the views of a Christian (me) in a nation founded upon Christian principles (not secular ones) so threatening to you? Perhaps the so-called tolerance you accuse me of not displaying is not so active in your own views.

    Last, in order to understand the importance of marriage, I highly recommend you read Genesis 2:23-24 where God makes man/woman for one another and for their union. As a matter of fact, reading the Bible gives great insight into the importance of marriage in Christianity and understanding that God created woman as a partner and helpmate for man…..

  31. (SRT edited this post to delete expletives)
    Voting stuff: So what if the majority of Americans and Congress are against it? They’re close-minded bigots, and gay marriage isn’t something that should be put to a vote anyway. I think it should be forced into law by a g*(^amn executive order, as soon as we get a president who has the balls to do it because he knows it’s right.

    Bible stuff: Why don’t you get it? The Bible shouldn’t be the basis for ANY laws or policies whatsoever. BTW Leviticus also forbids shellfish, certain types of fabric, contact with pigs of any kind (like football), and says you should wear your hair a certain way, sacrifice animals, and stone sinners to death in public. Do you follow any of THOSE practices?

    Everything else: laughed my f&*%ing ass off, thanks for the entertainment dude =]

  32. Alex,
    You are living proof that if someone engages long enough a self-righteous, amoral, partisan claiming to love equal “rights” for all such as your self—- it is possible to get to the core of your being and your motives.

    You are for nothing except forcing your view on everyone else and then calling those who disagree with you names…..all while ignoring law, tradition, precedent, and morality.

    You can’t engage in the legal discussion, you didn’t listen in the religious discussion, and it is clear that you could care less what anyone else’s view point is on gay marriage…….you simply want your way, come hell, high water, and flouting the Constitution.

    Go away and return when you grow up.

  33. You really won’t let me leave this godforsaken place in peace, will you? And thanks for not completely editing out my posts, I guess… (you missed a few “____shit”s)

    Now who’s being the meanie? You really have to take off your “everyone who isn’t a family-values, god-fearing conservative is a family-crushing, god-bashing, pot-smoking hippie liberal” way of looking at people. A lot of my closest friends are diehard republicans, yet I don’t see them as the conservative version of how you probably think of me. I’m the one who’s fine with other people having different beliefs than mine, not you.

    Don’t you dare say I’m the intolerant one; I’m agnostic, but am completely, 100% FINE with every single religion there is, and every follower of those religions WHO KEEPS IT TO THEMSELVES. To me religion is about the most personal thing in existence, and I’m absolutely flabbergasted whenever someone thinks its okay to back up or justify our SECULAR laws or government with the religion of part of the country, even if it is the majority religion.

    You have no right to talk about how marriage is such a sacred, tradition-based, Christian entity that you have to defend. It hasn’t always been that nice. Nor do you have the right to say that homosexuality IS universally immoral just because it’s immoral to you. And I’m not the one “flouting the Constitution”, gay marriage has constitutionality on its side. I don’t know why you think the Constitution shouldn’t be changed at all (sorry for calling you dude btw), but society is always changing and amendments are always going to be needed. If it weren’t for constitutional amendments, you wouldn’t have the right to vote.

    But by no stretch of imagination am I saying that marriage is something trivial or casual, just the opposite. I think marriage is a beautiful thing that everyone should have the right to take part in. And no, gays don’t have the same marriage rights now just because they have the option to marry the opposite sex, if that’s you think then you don’t understand how homosexuality works.

    In this case, to hell with precedent. The percent of the public, congress, whoever, who don’t personally approve of gay marriage is ir-re-le-vant, it-does-not-mat-ter. Do you think the South/other racists approved of abolishing slavery? Hell no! But that doesn’t mean Lincoln shouldn’t have done it, he knew it was the right thing to do. Exact same situation here, only with giving gays the right to marry instead of abolishing slavery. And you’re right, I don’t care what anyone’s personal views on gay marriage or homosexuality are, I’m fine with people hating them or thinking it’s a sin. That still doesn’t change the fact that gay marriage is an unalienable right that gays don’t have yet because of people like you.

    And you’ve never said anything about how you think gayness is a sin, yet ignore everything else in the Bible that’s also absurd by today’s standards (shellfish, selling your daughter to slavery, etc), which is easily the most hypocritical thing about you “family values” people.

    I think your first paragraph fits you PERFECTLY. I really couldn’t put it any better…

    Jesus, I think I’ve said everything here at least once before. You really need to read my posts better and try to respond to my actual points instead of answering incredibly skewed versions of what you think I’m saying and still not validly responding to them. I know you’ve repeated a lot of stuff too, but I’m guessing that’s because you didn’t realize that I had already knocked down a lot of your points and you felt like you needed to repeat them. Plus, it seems like you bring up how obnoxious/mean/biased you apparently think I am, whenever you get backed into a corner by me somehow proving you wrong. Yet even when that happens you’re not willing to change your views AT ALL. I actually am open to changing my opinions, I’ve just never ever ever (especially not here) come across any VALID, IRREFUTABLE, SECULAR reasons to be against gay marriage.

  34. Alex,
    You still have not answered why gay marriage is not being pushed (by those who have that agenda) with an amendment to the Constitution…like slavery and women’s voting. Gays are not pushing for that angle….but you seem to believe that gay marriage is on par with the abolishment of slavery and women’s voting rights.
    What I am trying to tell you is that the majority of Americans do not want gays to redefine marriage….and because of that you are seeing state after state decide the issue in favor of the true meaning of marriage.
    In addition, because of these majorities it is VERY unlikely that a Constitutional amendment for gay marriage would ever be ratified. (But I repeat myself again…)
    Either the states should decide this matter or there should be a Constitutional amendment.
    Many states have decided the matter and were shot down by a rogue judge. Gays are not pursuing a Constitutional Amendment.

    What you did on your post before was simply state that Obama (or some president) should ignore the Constitution and sign an executive order…..
    That is why I believe you want gay marriage whether it is done lawfully or not. A president has no legal power to do that.

    You’ve never addressed why a rogue judge or two have the right to erase the LEGAL voting process of the states in one fell swoop.

    As far as the Bible and the role of marriage in Christianity….you actually tried to state that marriage is not a Christian ritual and Christians have no claim to it. I merely pointed you to the Bible….one of hundreds of verses that prove that you are wrong on that.

  35. Well first off, you never really asked. I don’t know why they aren’t pushing for an amendment, and I’m not an avid follower of everything gay rights groups are doing, but frankly, I don’t care how it happens. All I want is for a gay couple to be able to marry in all 50 states, and to have the same marriage benefits you do.

    I DO think gay marriage is on par with no slavery and womens’ suffrage. And as to “redefining marriage”, I think you’re missing the point that love should be the primary focus of marriage, with everything else not even coming close. Why is it such a crime to allow a pretty oppressed group of people the right to have their love recognized in the same way straight couples do?

    I know how unlikely an amendment is, and I hate it. I’ll be smiling from ear to ear for a week straight as soon as less than 1/3 or our government and less than 1/4 of state legislatures are comprised of close-minded “marriage protectors”; hopefully it will be in my lifetime.

    Once again, constitutionality is on gay marriage’s side, not yours. How would Obama (or whoever) be ignoring the constitution by “forcing” gay marriage into federal law?
    Of course I want it done legally, the point of my “god~mn executive order” thing was just that I really want it done.

    If you’re talking about the CA District judge repealing Prop 8 in your 2nd to last paragraph, I don’t think they’re “rogue”, and there should never have been a Prop 8 to put to vote in the first place.

    Just because the Bible talks so much about marriage, doesn’t automatically make marriage Christian. Marriage FAR predates Christianity. You should stop bringing up the Bible so much. It is a religious text, not the justification for law or marriage.

    And finally, you still haven’t responded to your biblical hypocrisy, or a lot of the points I made, so I’m assuming I won those =]

  36. Alex,
    As for the Bible questions you asked—again, I would lead you to the Bible and/or some type of Bible study to understand the old and new testaments and the meaning of Christ, whose life and death made null the “old covenant” laws of the Bible.

    In a nutshell, the covenant that God made with Moses and the laws established with that covenant served the purposes of the time while teaching people of sin, establishing the laws of Israel, and as a prelude to the new covenant in Jesus Christ.

    With the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, the “old law” (old covenant) was no longer necessary. According to the Bible, we are all sinners and faith in Christ brings a change in our hearts. Christ is the “new law”.

    Christians no longer perform the rituals and functions of the old covenant (Old Testament) because it is no longer necessary. Christ is our Savior. But Christians do believe this covenant taught many lessons, some that parallel the teachings/actions of Christ.

    One other reply to your statement about the Bible being a “religious text”. ….You don’t have to worship Christ, nor even believe the Bible is the unerring Word of God, to understand that many of the morals and principles of the Christian/Western world came out of the very same teachings/princples in the Bible.

    Our own country, as was the subject of this post, was established by men who held in high esteem the morals and values of the Bible….so much so that many of them quoted the Bible.

    The Bible is not just a “text”….it has inspired many of the morals in this country and around the World for decades. Many of our laws WERE established around the Bible’s guiding principles.

  37. Wow, this is actually more in-line with the original point of this thread, cool.

    Obviously most Christians don’t consider shellfish a sin, or any of those other “old covenant” laws. What really bugs me is that Leviticus, the book that has the “man shall not lie with a man as he does with a woman” line is the SAME book that has a lot of those old laws that you said became unnecessary. Why is homosexuality still considered a sin when and the “absurd” old covenant stuff around it is void?

    And about the original subject, even if the Founding Fathers got a lot of their country-founding principles from the Bible, why does that make the US a Christian nation? You can definitely say Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc are Muslim countries, but that’s because Islam is the OFFICIAL religion of those countries, they weren’t just founded on Islamic principles.

  38. Alex,
    Some of the old laws are also pertinent in Christ’s teachings because He also taught them.

    Homosexuality is one such sin that Christ spoke about. There are some of the old laws/rituals that are no longer valid because they are no longer needed and Christ has taught otherwise. But many, as in homosexuality and other sexual sins, Christ taught us that they are sins.

    References to homosexuality and Christ’s teaching on it can be found directly and indirectly in many places of the New Testament including I Corinthians, I Timothy, Romans and more. (And, as you correctly mentioned, it is also discussed in the Old Testament)

    Our country was founded on Christian morals and values of the Bible as outlined by our Founders. Even the minoirity that included Deists and others among the Founders agreed upon the morality that is espoused in the Bible.

    We are not a Christian nation in the sense that Iran is a Muslim country (ie state religion), for example. (One of those Christian values is a free expression of religious faith…no matter the religion.)
    But it is clear that our Founders and many leaders throughout our history have understood that without the Judeo-Christian ethic, we would not be the country that we are.

    We were not founded by those who thought that secularism, Islam or any other religious doctrine would lead us to become an exceptional nation that our Judeo-Christian basis has formed.
    Preserving our Chrisitan heritage and values is imperative to preserving our country. They go hand in hand.

  39. First, secularism isn’t a religion, it’s the absence of religious influence from government. It’s something the Fathers themselves put in the constitution.

    And to once again quote the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams himself, “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;…”. I can’t say it any better than that.

    On your last sentence, I don’t get why you think that Christians are the only people who have good values. No ones’ values should be deemed inferior just because they’re not religiously backed; The Founding Fathers’ principles would’ve been the same if they weren’t influenced by Christianity. I’m almost an atheist and I agree with a few of the bullet points on your About page (guns, English, immigration, affirmative action, college football), not all my opinions are “hippy/liberal/socialist”.

  40. Alex,
    Secularism was not “put into” the Constitution. The Founders were mostly religious men, the majority of them Christians with some denominational differences….
    Clearly, they did not draw their morals from “secularism”.

    The best way to describe our nation and what the founders formed is as a nation without a religion of “state”, but a religious nation, particularly of a Christian leaning.

    As far as the Treaty of Tripoli–which contains perhaps the only statement of its kind regarding the Christian religion in America– the reference to “Government” is key. At the time of the treaty, Muslim pirates were taking over American ships. America’s Navy was not a major force and we were vulnerable. The Treaty was written to make relations smooth with the Muslims at the time. Many historians believe this quote does two things: 1) It tries to clarify for the Muslims that America was not the “state” Christian religion of Europe that they had dealt with before…thus declaring we are a not a Christian “state” and 2) the statement is not inaccurate, per se. Our GOVERNMENT does not claim itself to have a state religion of Christianity…actually quite the oppose (freedom of religion). That statement, however, does not override the fact that we were founded by Christians with a population of Christians. It simply means our government does not condone a “state religion”. But our founding fathers, our founding documents, our laws, and our people adhered to the Christian religion and ethic.

    Besides, I usually hear those that believe we are a secularist America recite this one Tripoli quote to substantiate their belief….all the while, there are multitudes of documents, quotes, founding papers, official treaties, letters and more written by our Founders that clearly outlined their belief in God, scripture, Christ, the Trinity and that our nation must look to God and stand on the morals of Christianity.
    One quote, taken out of context, doesn’t supersede all of the clear evidence of our Christian founding.

    I did not mean to insinuate that only Christians have good values. I was simply, perhaps clumsily, trying to state that our Founders were not Muslims, nor atheists….the majority of them were devout Christians that believed in God and that Christian values were the basis upon which to build this country and sustain it.

    I believe that there are “good” people in our country with solid values that are not Christians…no doubt about it. But let’s face it, much of what has been deemed and proven as moral/immoral or right/wrong for centuries has come from the lessons of Christ and the Bible.

  41. OK, I think more than enough has been said for me to clearly understand your point of view. But even after reading all that I still don’t think we are a Christian nation (or at least we shouldn’t be), so we’ll have to agree to disagree.
    Some thoughts I have to get off my chest before I leave…

    The biggest reason for my agnosticism is because I could never force myself to follow a religion that includes condemning an entire demographic for a personal trait (homosexuality), and one that claims to be about love and acceptance yet is just the opposite. People ought to be able to abide by “to each his own” & “live and let live”, and just stay the fuck out of the parts of others’ personal lives that affect them in no way whatsoever.

    Yesterday I went to a church my friend goes to, my first time going in 4 years. He, his friends I met there, and everyone else in attendance was there because they truly wanted to accept Christ, worship the Lord, be closer to God, and all that good stuff. It wasn’t a “Sunday morning ritual” like it is for the majority of church-goers. I now have a much better understanding of what it truly means to be a Christian, and hating/condemning gays in ANY way isn’t a part of it, something I can’t help but feel like you don’t get.

    That being said, I think the main difference between us other than our opinions on social issues, is that you’re a lot more uptight than I am. I’m not gay and am weirded out by gay sex, but I’m as accepting of them as someone could possibly be, unlike you. I’m betting you never did any “college experimenting”, and that in 1 year of college I’ve already had more fun than you had in all 4+ years of yours.

    Despite how cliché and hippyish this sounds, life should really be spent doing what you love, loving the people in your life, helping those around you and just having fun, not hating and judging people for things they have no control of and that don’t affect you. Lighten up and enjoy life…

    Even though I now support gay marriage so much more than before I saw this post, I did learn a few things about Christianity and why gayness is still sometimes considered a sin. Thanks I guess, and so long.

  42. Alex,
    Thanks for discussing.

    Glad to know you had a great experience at church. I hope you go more and enjoy it even more.

    For the record, I don’t “hate” gays. I’ve known quite a few in my life …most of them quite enjoyable to be around just like many of my other friends. Actually, I’ve had gay friends/coworkers that I didn’t even know were gay…for some time. No big deal and I did not interfere with their lives nor them with mine. However, if the subject were to arise, I would never endorse gay marriage for them.

    I’ve also known some people who are alcoholics, some who’ve been adulterers, some who lie, some who’ve stolen….you get the drift…..I don’t condone any of those behaviors, but I understand them and I love those people regardless of their faults.

    Just remember that loving the person doesn’t mean we have to condone or endorse their BEHAVIOR.
    I am somewhat certain that my parents love me more than life, but I am just as certain that there are things I’ve done in my life that they don’t like nor endorse….they love me anyway…and I would not expect them to endorse my mistakes or bad behavior….all of which I am well aware of.

    And remember, with gay marriage, this isn’t just about “intruding” on their lives, but also about intruding on the lives of all Americans who are married. When the definition of marriage is REDEFINED, it most certainly intrudes on my personal life. So that “stay out of people’s lives” works both ways.
    Frankly, I don’t care what homosexuals do behind closed doors…but don’t expect me to endorse the behavior when it is forced upon me and society.

    As far as my college years and my views….you are certainly quite judgmental. I have a point of view that adheres to the moral platform of definitive rights and wrongs. Your’s adheres to a relative morality. Neither of us is perfect and we will both stray at times from our moral convictions.
    But my viewpoint doesn’t make me any less fun….you might be surprised. (Words in a blog do not fully a person make 🙂

    Nevertheless, thanks for your comments. I do appreciate it even if we disagree. (At least someone reads this blog : )
    I do hope you continue your church attendance….
    I don’t promise to lighten up on our country’s cultural and political issues, but I promise you I will enjoy life.

    Take care….best wishes.

  43. I really don’t mean to start up anything (at all), but: (3:47 – 4:09).

    Just sayin’…….
    (watch the whole video if you want, it’s quite a hoot)

  44. Alex,

    I didn’t have to get through the whole video to see that it is a full and complete strawman.

    The depiction of Tea Partiers is a made-up version based on a leftist view of what it is they want Tea Partiers to be.

    It really isn’t all that funny even if you’ve swallowed that view of a Tea Partier hook, line and sinker.

  45. Lemme try the URL again, I tried adding the #t= part on the end so it would skip right to 3:47. If it doesn’t do so yourself

    It’s obviously strawman’d, but my point wasn’t the whole video, only the part from 3:47 – 4:09/how hypocritical your views of gays are. Again, just sayin’…..

    And there are a LOT of people who honestly feel like this. See any of the dozens of “9/12 DC Rally” videos. One of my friends on facebook said he knew it was a joke but that he actually agreed with nearly everything “Tea partier” said.

  46. hey idiots, Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. It mentions “We The People”. The words “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God” are never mentioned in the Constitution– not once. Most of our foretathers were deists. What the hell are all of you talking about?!?! READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS

  47. Wow, Carlos. I guess you read absolutely none of the blog post or the following debate. And what history book are you reading exactly, that Howard Zinn masterpiece of revisionist pseudo-history, “A People’s History of the United States?”

  48. If marriage is all about procreation, then why are heterosexuals who are infertile, allowed to marry? Why do we allow heterosexuals that are too old to procreate marry? Why do we allow heterosexual couples who plan on NEVER having a family, get married? The procreation line is tired and over played. I’m not married, but I know a lot of married people, and I have never heard them talk about the “Procreation Clause” they had to sign to get married. Marriage predates christianity and is NOT a religious institution. Just because religious institutions perform marriage ceremonies, doesn’t make it religious. You don’t have to be married in a church. You can be married anywhere. You also don’t need a member of the clergy to perform the marriage ceremony. The government is in charge of marriages. You can get married all you want in a church, but if you don’t sign GOVERNMENT papers, it’s not valid. So the church and its minions should leave gay people alone. The definition of marriage is one man and one woman? Oh, that’s what tradition dictates? Oh wait, you meant CHRISTIAN tradition dictates that. Lucky for you we are a Christian theocracy who’s laws are dictated by the Holy Bible…Oh wait what? We’re not? We’re a Democratic Republic whose laws come from a document called the CONSTITUTION whose First Amendment specifically states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”. So Congress can NOT make a law respecting an establishment of religion (unfortunately for christians that does include you) but also must respect that you exist and get to worship how you see fit. Your morals and beliefs do NOT supercede mine. My religious views, or lack thereof, are just as important as yours. Other religions like the Mormons define their “Traditional Marriage” to include 1 man with many wives. “Traditional Marriage” also includes, a man who rapes a virginal woman. And to equate gay marriage with beastialty or allowing humans to marry animals is disrespectful to gays and idiotic. And Pedophilia? Most pedo’s are STRAIGHT. Read a damn book! You Christians with your marriage sanctity disgust me. Before deciding your morals are so worthy that you have a legitimate right to enforce them on unwilling participants, learn how to reign in your own. I’ll make you a deal, get your divorce rate down to just 10% or less, then you can tell me who I can and can’t marry. Marriage should be about 1 thing: LOVE. It should be defined as 2 legal adults, joining together for the purpose of pure HAPPINESS, that is going to be recognized by the United States of America, with all the rights that come with it. And as an aside, i’m not gay. I just refuse to be accept that I, or anyone else, can be told who they can or can not marry, based on race, religion, or gender. Just like every accepted Discrimination policy.

  49. Gee, Monica, seems no one can dictate what marriage is except for the gays.

    Got it.

  50. A ridiculous, smart alec comment because you can’t handle the fact that you’re religious beliefs don’t get to dictate the lives of others. Why am I not surprised? If you want to live in a country whose laws are actually dictated by their bible, I hear the middle east does that extremely well. Good luck with that.

  51. Monica,
    I’ve clearly defended in the comments above, if you even read them, about how our country was founded and the role of Christianity in it.

    People like yourself clearly wish to redefine history in order to accomodate your world view and desires.

    I don’t need to rehash the facts again in response to a selfish rant.

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