Noonan’s great example of when life begins…


I read Peggy Noonan’s latest article over the weekend and heard Rush talking about it this morning.

Noonan has such a way with words and this is no exception.  Defining when life begins is not above her paygrade!

From Peggy Noonan:

As to the question when human life begins, the answer to which is above Mr. Obama’s pay grade, oh, let’s go on a little tear. You know why they call it birth control? Because it’s meant to stop a birth from happening nine months later. We know when life begins. Everyone who ever bought a pack of condoms knows when life begins.

To put it another way, with conception something begins. What do you think it is? A car? A 1948 Buick?

If you want to argue whether legal abortion is morally defensible, have at it and go to it, but Mr. Obama’s answers here seemed to me strange and disturbing.

Rush expounded on the point this morning by asking something like “if the Democrats don’t believe life begins at conception, then why use birth control?”

It seems the Democrats want to define some arbitrary point when a baby is alive so as to suit their need for relative moralism.  But, as pointed out by Noonan, they are inconsistent on the issue of when life begins.

Dems believe life begins at conception when they want to force condoms and birth control on America’s daughters, but

Dems apparently believe life doesn’t begin until birth when they want to force abortion upon America (without parental consent).

So which is it? 

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33 Responses

  1. Thomas Aquinas said specifically that life begins after the child is out of the womb. So there’s a Christian thought for you.
    As a Liberal and as a giver to Planned Parenthood and NARAL, I know that our goal is to reduce abortions. Comprehensive education and sound programs for young and poor mothers lessen the need for abortion. Abortion, in my mind, should be a last resort for medical purposes. Mississippi’s laws come to mind. They’ve made it very difficult to get an abortion, but not impossible. In countries where abortion is illegal, abortions are still out of controlt, and so are deaths of young women due to botched illegal abortions. The best record of low abortions and low STDs is the Nederlands. Their sexual education in the schools begin at age 6. As a young woman from a conservative southern State, I know that my sex education was shoddy, at best. Thankfully, I had parents who worked with teenagers in residential programs (which means kids having sex starting around 12, if they weren’t being abused at a younger age) and I took AP Biology.

    When I lived in New Zealand, the best signs I saw that were from an anti-abortion group simply said “Support me? Support my mother.”

    My religious obligations require me to care for the poor, educate the uneducated and provide my self unselfishly to everyone until I am spent or dead. I believe that’s the only way to promote a “pro-life” environment – one with minimal abortions, no capitol punishment, and no bombs (See, I’m pro-life all the way). This is why I cannot side with the Republicans.

  2. As a high school biology teacher for 32 years I can tell you that every biology text offers the answer in Unit one. The attempt to define “biology” as the study of life we must then define “life.” Every book I’ve ever seen says we can’t do it. So we use a working definition that gives the traits of those things we call alive; response to stimuli, movement of some kind, convert food to energy, etc.
    After a discussion of very early attempts to duplicate “spontaneous generation” and prove it’s impossibility the demonstration is given as proof that life does NOT begin but continues from one generation to the next. The egg is alive, the sperm is alive; at what point do we declare them legally deserving of protection?

  3. Teamgilreath,
    Even saying the egg is alive and sperm is alive….at what point does a baby’s life begin?? When the two join and begin growing/developing?? Or when it breathes air for the first time? Or starts moving??

    As a woman who is currently pregnant in her 5th month, I can tell you that even though this baby inside me hasn’t breathed air, it is definitely there and has life. I feel it move a lot…..

    I can’t believe anyone would consider anything but when the baby is concieved as when that baby’s life begun. If that wasn’t the case, then there would be no need for birth control in any form.

    Rush was right: People who debate this topic and support anything other than conception as the point of life of a baby sound completely ignorant.

  4. amberpeace,
    The primary goal of Planned Parenthood is not to REDUCE abortions.

    In case you haven’t read, Planned Parenthood, makes “obscene profits” (a liberal term you can understand) on abortion. What motivates them to actually want to reduce abortions? Especially, since they perform abortions with our tax dollars, to boot?

    As long as abortionists and their followers justify abortion as some type of woman’s right, I will continue to believe that abortion and a woman’s convenience is THE actual goal.

    As far as some country’s records on abortion and sexual education at the age of 6, well, first, ANY abortion is one too many–that is a TRUE pro-life stance.
    Second,I am all for my children learning about sex. But it is my place to do so and in my time that they will learn it….not the government or some group of angry women whose believe their rights trump all and that feign the hatred of abortion while pushing for abortion in any way they can….all in the name of women’s rights.

    There is no “woman’s right” to murder another person.

    As far quotes, how about, “What if your mother had aborted you?”

    Funny how you proclaim pro-life with NO capital punishment and NO wars, but SOME abortions are OK. Sounds like an excuse to bash Republicans, hate war, hate Bush, and defend the convicts among us…but Babies…ah, not so much if the mother decides they don’t want it.

    I am not sure what religion you profess, but most mainstream religions look down upon the murder of INNOCENT humans.

    The Ten Commandments “Thou shall not kill” is not the most obvious place, but references abound in the Bible on killing.

    The Bible states that innocents should not be killed (which is really how the Hebrew version of that commandment is translated—innocents should not be killed)

    As far as war, we all know that war is not our first choice in dealing with people or countries. But war is the result of sin and there are writings of God commanding war throughout the Bible.
    The goal is peace, but sometimes the way to it is war. History and the Bible are pretty clear on this.

    As far as capital punishment, God said in Genesis:
    “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man.”
    I believe, in studying what the Bible says, that God has condoned and commanded capital punishment for those who kill in a malicious, pre-meditated fashion. God teaches that innocent blood is cleansed by the killing of the one that shed it.

    My view is pretty consistently biblical and pro-life. And my view is a woman’s right doesn’t trump a baby’s right to live. And my view is that a woman has all kinds of choices in life just like men…and the choice to have a baby (or not) is made at the time of engaging in sexual intercourse…period.

    But you still didn’t answer why on one hand we need birth control because a HUMAN is the result…and on the other hand, there is no HUMAN so let’s abort it….can’t have it both ways.

  5. In a perfect world, there would be no abortion. I personally would not have one. I understand that any time a person has sex, they are possibly creating life. Pregnancy is the consequence. Being young, “not ready” because your in college or inconvenience to the life you are currently living is not a good, and in fact are terrible and selfish reasons for having an abortion. On the other hand, my best friend’s mother had to abort the baby before her because of tubal implant. It was baby’s death or mother and baby’s death.

    You are correct that Genesis says that. You also forget that Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to perfect it. He asked his disciples to be willing die – not to kill. Vengeance is the Lords and we are to wait on His justice – not ours. Our temporal lives and freedoms here are nothing compared to the glories of eternity and those freedoms found in Christ. Death is nothing but gain.

    Also, I claim Anglicanism. Anglo-Catholic to be more precise. I currently worship in a Christian Church/Church of Christ congregation, because it’s where I’ve attended for the past five years during my schooling.

  6. Oh, and I do believe the fetus, the child, is a human. No liberals I am in contact with and have had this conversation with disagree with me on that – including the Planned Parenthood district workers. In conversation I tend to use the words “baby” and “child”, unless I’m talking to a doctor. I suppose I start to disagree when my skin cells are as potential for life as the current state of the the ova and sperm cells.

  7. It is quite ironic that someone like Thomas Aquinas, a 13th century Roman Catholic Priest would be used in an argument defending abortion.

    Also interesting is that even Peggy Noonan mischaracterizes the question. It was not “when does life begin”. The question, specifically was…

    “At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?”

    This isn’t THAT hard a question and I suspect it was carefully crafted to get around most of the philosophical or strictly religious “when does life begin” issues.

    Obama could have simply said “at birth”. That would have been the latest possible moment that “basic human rights” would kick in. From a pro-choice standpoint, this would be a completely legitimate answer. As “amberpeace” alluded, even the most ardent pro-abortionist would have to admit that a baby in the second or third trimester is clearly “alive”. Their “choice” is to deny that child “basic human rights” until the actual birth.

    Instead, Obama tried to punt and leave the granting of “basic human rights” to those “above his paygrade”…whatever that means. If he wants to be President, he needs to understand the concept of God granting life, and man granting the “basic human rights”.

  8. amberpeace,
    We can mince words about whether it is human, child, or fetus…no matter the term, God created that life.

    And I guess that we look at the New Testament a bit differently. I view the Bible as making clear in the New Testament that Jesus and the Father are one, and therefore in perfect agreement. In Acts, Paul talks about if he had committed ando ffense worthy of death he would not refuse to die. I believe that capital punishment was clearly present in the Old and New Testaments.

    I appreciate you well thought out comments even if we disagree.

    The thing I can never understand with liberals, many who claim to be Christians, is the overarching need to overlook the actual death of an innocent that takes place in an abortion (no matter if you call it a fetus or a baby), but in the same conversation they claim that capital punishment and war are inhumane.

    One other thing about war…one example…if there had never been a Civil War, slavery would not have ended in this country very quickly, if ever. Wasn’t war justified in that case?

  9. amberpeace,
    Out of curiosity, I just went to the Planned Parenthood website.

    The first page had this to say:

    “The president’s rule lets health care providers define abortion, which could threaten access to birth control and broader reproductive health care, and allow federal funding for so-called “crisis pregnancy centers” that refuse to inform patients of or provide patients with a full range of reproductive health care options.”

    Isn’t it interesting that abortion can’t be defined by health care providers in the minds of Planned Parenthood minions? Further, the gist of the first part of the comment is that the definition of abortion (by someone other than Planned Parenthood, no less) might infringe on access to Birth Control? Just how could that happen unless you believe abortion IS a form of Birth Control…..and if you believe that way, you are not on the page of reducing abortions!

    Also, crisis-pregnancy centers are valid options for those with unexpected pregnancies….and most do not push the abortion agenda. That is why Planned Parenthood is against crisis pregnancy centers receiving federal funding….even though Planned Parenthood operates on the taxpayer dole.

    This is how it is with groups like Planned Parenthood….they can not state their basic intentions because if they do they will lose money. So they cloak their intentions into broad phrases like “reproductive health”. There is nothing healthy for mom or baby in an abortion.

  10. GBS,
    You found it “interesting” that “…Peggy Noonan mischaracterizes the question. It was not “when does life begin”. The question, specifically was…
    “At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?” I copied your posting here.

    Guess what?! You’re wrong.

    The question posed to Sen. Obama was what you wrote. The question to Speaker Pelosi – which is what Peggy Noonan was clearly referring to and quoted correctly is copied below. Straight from “Meet the Press” transcript. Go there yourself but as I wrote, here it is:

    MR. BROKAW: Senator Obama saying the question of when life begins is above his pay grade, whether you’re looking at it scientifically or theologically. If he were to come to you and say, “Help me out here, Madame Speaker. When does life begin?” what would you tell him?

    REP. PELOSI: I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. (and her answer goes on).

  11. Sharprightturn,
    I disagree with the current stance that Planned Parenthood is taking on defining abortion. I believe doctors should be the ones, for they are the ones studying the procedure, and carry it out. However, I also know the other choices in my area push an agenda of shame and little explanation and help to the mothers. The crisis centers that I have been in contact don’t even explain to the mothers’ the joys of adoption.
    Now, I do agree with Planned Parenthood about the fear of infringing on birth control. Coming from a large and Catholic family, I stand at odds with the rest of them. My grandparents were doctors for the Catholic Church and they considered birth control pills and condoms to be against God’s perfect plan. They definitely considered BCPs to be a form of abortion, because there is still a chance of implantation and then the implanted egg being spontaneously aborted due the the impact of the pill. So, if you have people defining abortion, even doctors, who are like my grandparents – you would have a world where every type of birth control would be band.

    Now, here are two places that put me at odds with almost everyone in the world – christians and non:
    Innocent life. I believe that all humankind are in need of the redemption of Christ’s blood. I believe that no human is free from that. Because of that, I believe that a baby in the womb is no less innocent than a leader that commits genocide. Both need the salvation of Christ. So one life is not more holy or sacred than the other. Both the murder and the child need the exact same things in life – grace, hope, mercy, and forgiveness. So in that frame of mind, I would like to say that I believe life should be understood to be a sacred thing from the time of nerves and blood to the time they fade away.

    Two, I truly believe that war is not the answer. We cannot know what would have happened after the civil war without it happening. Perhaps slavery would have immediately ended a few years later. Perhaps for not thousands of years. I hope that I would be willing to spend a life in physical enslavement, or a martyr’s death, if it meant not killing another.

  12. Actually Brokaw and Noonan rephrased the question wrong.

    GBS is correct. At Saddleback the question posed to Obama was:

    “At what point is a baby entitled to human rights”?

    The answer given by Obama was that it was above his pay grade.

    Noonan was referring to that answer and the Saddleback Forum.

  13. Gabriele,

    Clearly, I’m not wrong…on any of it. RTFA

  14. amberpeace–
    You said:
    “So, if you have people defining abortion, even doctors, who are like my grandparents – you would have a world where every type of birth control would be band. ”

    If “people” don’t define abortion, whose job is it to define abortion? Planned Parenthood are “people” last time I checked…and, by the way, they have a huge “conflict of interest” in being the “ones” who define abortion for the rest of us.

    On war–we are 180 degrees off in our view of it. Your view is interesting … It seems that if you were in a mall and a gunman was on the loose….and pointing the gun at you just as the cops arrive..they tell him not to shoot or they will fire….you would prefer the COPS (or the gunman) shoot you instead of the cops shoot the gunman.

  15. I am curous about where the NT advocates capital punishment. Jesus came to establish a new covenant, one where killing was not advocated.

    Here is my line of thinking, so hear me out. Conservative Christians (in general) believe that a baby or fetus or small child goes to Heaven upon his or her death, right? There’s some sort of informal age limit, or at least that is what I was taught as a child in my conservative church.

    Meanwhile, an adult…let’s say 19, 20, 21…gets killed by a bullet or bomb. We don’t know this person’s heart or beliefs. Either he or she is in Heaven or Hell, right? No one can be sure but God and the person. No gray area, right? Either Heaven or Hell it is.

    It is my understanding that most conservatives believe this, right? For a person to advocate the latter based on Biblical understanding yet abhor the former is bewildering to me. Under this somewhat typical conservative understanding of Jesus’s teachings, is it more okay to kill a person who might go to Hell or kill a person who will automatically go to Heaven based on some informal doctrine?

    I say neither. I am pro-life all around. That means no killing of babies, fetuses, convicts, soldiers, etc. I hate that abortion is an option. I really do hate it. However, when a young woman and/or man don’t have any options for how to handle the baby, what can we do? If Christians cared more about taking care of the “least of these” (mentioned by Jesus) than they did about boycotting all of those “evil” gays (never mentioned by Jesus), we might make some headway in making abortion not an option.

    I still can’t wrap my head around war being okay by any means, especially as “supported” by Jesus’ teachings. War is the most arrogant of all vices, to assume that one person’s life is not worthy of redemption by even the slightest notion.

    I apologize for getting philosophical. Just my two cents.

    God bless,

    Aaron

  16. Sharprightturn,
    On the idea of the gunman in the mall – I would prefer the cops shoot no one. Especially if the police are Christian, then death wouldn’t be an issue for them. What we have here is fundamentally different starting blocks. What’s often asked of me next is, “But what about the families left behind, what about the friends.” My stance is that temporary sufferings in life are nothing – absolutely nothing- compared to the eternal peace and glories with Christ. So the idea of me dying from a crazy gunman, and then a few policemen, and then maybe the gunman himself – and the very long impact that has down the line – generally does not faze me. I really look to the early martyrs who refused to serve in the Roman Army and the Anabaptists who refused to take oath or swear allegiance to their princes.

  17. “We cannot know what would have happened after the civil war without it happening.”

    Sure we can…the United States would have lost at LEAST 11 southeastern states. Those states formed the Confederate States of America in early 1861 and then began forcibly ejecting anyone still working for the Federal Government. If the US Government hadn’t fought to put down the rebellion, the formation of the CSA would have stood. For a number of reasons even beyond slavery, this would have been a bad thing.

    “I hope that I would be willing to spend a life in physical enslavement, or a martyr’s death, if it meant not killing another.”

    I’m so glad people like Washington, Lincoln, the Roosevelt’s, Eisenhower, and the hundreds of millions who formed, built, and defended this nation didn’t share that view. You should thank them in your daily prayers.

    I find it astounding that someone who actively supports organizations that perform abortions would make such a comment. If there was ever a better example of hypocrisy…

  18. Amberpeace–
    If the cops shoot no one, then there would be a lot of dead people in the mall anyway including you…is that any better?

  19. Amberpeace, you’re clearly missing the large sections of the Bible that say “Defend yourself to the death.”

  20. Sharprightturn,
    If Christ’s torture, death, and resurrection gave us the truest freedom – and that is freedom from death – then I don’t see it as any worse.

  21. Aaron,
    I appreciate you offering your two cents….thanks.

    In order to believe as Christians (most of which do call themselves conservatives), you have to believe that the Bible is the word of God and divinely inspired – both New and Old Testaments.

    God instituted capital punishment in Genesis9:6:
    “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
    The reason God spoke that clearly about it is because human life is sacred and made in the image of God.

    Capital punishment was prevalent in the Roman Empire, but Paul, in the book of Romans, never condemned it.
    In Acts, Paul referenced capital punishment when he said, “For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die”

    (He believed there are some acts worthy of death)

    Even Romans 6:23 implies capital punishment:
    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    The most famous form of capital punishment was Christ himself….put to death to save us.

    So it obvious that those inspired to write the Bible (New Testament included) did not condemn the practice of capital punishment and in some texts it is explicity stated.

    Regarding children, many Christians believe there is an age of accountability where children learn right from wrong ….it is after that age that one must be saved in order to spend eternity in heaven. Even for Christians, this concept is not always easy to understand.

    Two words I think you are confusing is killing and murder. Killing is the taking of life. Murder is the premeditated or purposeful killing of innocent life.

    An innocent 19 or 20 year old murdered on the streets is a far cry from one killed in the midst of war in defense of liberty and freedom, which is far from an innocent baby murdered in the womb.

    It is never Ok to murder, whether in the womb or out. But there are circumstances which warrant the killing of others (biblically)…war and capital punishment are the two main ones that come to mind. Please read my responses to amberpeace about a shooting in the mall.

    As far as war and redemption….those who confess and sin no more are redeemed, biblically. But the God talks about and commands war in the Bible.

    As commenter GBS indicated….you wouldn’t be sitting there all cozy tonight on the computer in a secure home in a nice city and free country if not for those who thought war was worth fighting…just think about that.

  22. amberpeace –
    whew…you are kinda out there on the pacifism thing…

    You are probably on the wrong blog to get any agreement on that extreme thinking….

    So, I surrender….don’t think I’ve convinced you and probably never will.

  23. Sharprightturn,

    In regards to your last comment, there is no way to know what I would be doing. That is probably the most esoteric comment made all evening. Besides, a lot of our involvement in foreign conflict was created by our own hand. Do you know why Bin Laden has the kind of intellgence and miliatry training? Re: Afghanistan vs. Russia. Think about the unnecessary fighting we are doing because of a cowboy president in the 80’s.

    With all due respect, I believe you’re taking Romans way out of context. That has nothing to do with capital punishment. I also believe you’re taking the OT out of context. Christ’s death and resurrection represented a new covenant that abolished Mosaic requirements. Do you eat shellfish? Wear clothes made from multiple fabrics? Doesn’t that mean I can kill you? You can’t take every sentence from the Bible and assume it means that is how you should act now. That’s a BIG Scriptural fallacy.

    Just curious, what is your denominational/affiliation background?

  24. P.S. I am only curious with my discussion. I do not mean to degrade or belittle anyone. I think dialogue about our beliefs is a much better avenue to Christian reconciliation than any kind of “black and white” absolutism.

  25. Lastly, where in the Bible are “murder” and “killing” differentiated? Semantically, I can totally understand your point, but not scripturally.

  26. Aaron, we need Bembry for your last question.

    Sharprightturn,
    Oh, I know that I am pretty fringe out there. I don’t even pretend to think I could get people to agree with me, especially just from talking and more so from intellectual internet conversations. It’s definitely a 1 in 1 million thought process and can’t be accepted just from reading. It’s either from seeing in practice or a intense conviction that’s almost physical. Mine was the latter.
    But, there is no good from not reading and listening to Christians that study differently than I do. I would be a poor member of the body and a terrible scholar if I just listened to myself 🙂

  27. Aaron,
    I am a Christian, raised Southern Baptist….pretty much non-denominational now.

    How did I take Romans and Paul out of context? Paul did indicate there are crimes/sins worthy of death. Aside from that, Paul himself was executed for speaking about God!

    Difference in murdering and killing?
    God said thou shalt not kill which in Hebrew means thou shalt not murder. Most biblical scholars believe this commandment refers to murder which is the intentional, malicious killing of another.

    Capital punishment which is justice for the crime is not murder, it is killing.
    Abortion is murder, not killing.
    Self defense is not murder, it is killing.

    I don’t see what eating shellfish has to do with our discussion on killing and murder. I believe the entire Bible is there for us to learn. Writers in the New Testament often referred to or revealed the stories and prophecies written in the Old Testament. I think I referred to both testaments in discussing Capital Punishment. Are we supposed to ignore the teachings of the Old Testament?

  28. “Think about the unnecessary fighting we are doing because of a cowboy president in the 80’s.”

    That’s not the dumbest comment I’ve read all night…but it’s up there.

  29. amberpeace —

    Fair enough..

    I don’t want to listen only to myself either…something tells me I would get bored pretty quickly! 🙂

  30. Sharprightturn,
    I believe what Aaron is stating about the shellfish and clothing is that if one is going to stand by the old covenant of eye for eye, one must also stand by the laws of kosher (which Jesus and Peter overturn) and the rest of the massive amount of laws listed in the OT. Eye for eye was, in fact, a state law. It’s purpose was so that the one offended could demand justice, if he really wanted, but could not over-impose his justice. Example, if a neighbor sliced your hand off, you couldn’t have him killed. You could only slice his hand off. Jesus stated specifically that “You have heard eye for eye..but I say…” You know the rest. Jesus was turning over a state law, not simply a relative moral law that an individual needs to live by, but not the state. In the jewish frame of mind, which he was teaching in, there is no difference between religion and state and personal religion. They all meshed together.

    This is difficult because we are so proud of our seperation of Church and State. As someone who’s lived in a country with a state religion, I actually preferred it. You knew where the church began and where it ended. I taught religious education in a public school. While they are some of the most unreligious people in the world – they reconise Anglicanism as part of their tradition.
    In the States, we are walking this carefully balanced line of seperation that really doesn’t’ work well at all. We truly don’t know where infringement happens since there are no cut and dried lines. One one had we were built on Judeo-Christian principles. On the other hand, our original leaders were a bunch of half-crazed deists. Thomas Jefferson’s “bible” and his views and goals for UVA are good indicators of where he sat in the spectrum of faith. Because of their desires for tolerance of worship to “The Creator” however a group saw fit – we are left to work with that legacy. I don’t like it, but it’s what we have.

    Ramble much????

  31. amberpeace,
    I understand why he talked about shellfish. My question was more rhetorical because I thought it was a little irritating. I was in no wayadvocating following the Old Testament as they did under the old law. I thought I addressed the relationship of the New to Old Testament as well as can be done in a few sentences…..or maybe as well as I am able.

    Most of this has nothing to do with what I first asked anyway….

    I could go on forever about the fable of “separation” of Church and State in America, but in the interest of time and keeping my posts on topic, I will pass on that for now.

  32. This would be a decent time to read Pope Paul VI’s landmark encyclical Humanæ Vitæ… It is the fortieth anniversary of the letter to Catholics that re-affirmed that the Catholic Church was going to stand by what had been – up until 1931 when the Anglicans changed course on the teaching by vote – the consensus throughout the Christian world.

    Than consider the correlations between what was written than, and what we see now.

  33. Check out the site..Margaret Sanger is the founder of Planned Parenthood. Check it out.
    Martin Luther Kings niece is pro life and has been trying to teach African Americans the evil of Planned Parenthood. She even denounced them at the NAACP convention recently.

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